Minimum age for Vatsim directed to be 16

General Discussion
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See BOG Meeting Minutes 2025 Q2 4.03

Maybe it went generally unnoticed, maybe nobody really cares. Well, I do. And I say that I am unhappy with this decision. A decision which has been made - so it appears to me - merely „in passing“, as the topic was not even on the agenda.

It may be true that younger folk generally is getting dumber, but there are exceptions, and banning an entire age group is a step in the wrong direction and just the easy way out.

A young person can fly radio controlled airplanes (and I’m talking about real RC here, not toys) as early as six or seven, he can fly sailplanes at 14 - but Vatsim? No, he can’t do that. Because at Vatsim, we are mature, and he is per se not. VATSIM works with children and families as part of its activities. Where did I read this?

Basically every hobby and sports organization out there canvasses young people to win new blood, but not Vatsim, not anymore. Our hobby has been gentrified before, and this will happen again with this step. When a young person is interested in aviation, this interest starts early and needs to be fueled. At 16, many of them will be elswhere. And I am speaking out of personal experience, having raised a commercial pilot who started flying sailplanes at the age of 13 and was a flight instructor at 19, which would not have happened without his online simming experience from earliest age both as pilot and ATC.

Besides, I run the Vatsim Germany PMP (Pilot Mentoring Program), and we have quite a few requests from boys aged 13-15 who are interested and eager to learn. And now, you plan to exclude them from our hobby? Disappointing.

Why not raising the bar for Vatsim applicants 13-15? Why not telling them „see, we had some bad experience with people your age, and because of that our regular minimum age of entry has been set to 16. But if you are really interested, we have a procedure for you“. Which could for example be a personal assessment by a trainer.

I mean, what numbers are we talking about? How many of the 238 new members per day register within this age group? And even if it were too many to assess them in real time, there could be a waiting list (which is common in ATC training for years now). This would, by the way, clean out most if not all of those who initially gave the reason for this decision.

And I’m sure it could be done, technically. Those who lie about their age will continue to register, one way ot the other - you can’t possibly request (and check) personal IDs.

I am well aware that my post will change nothing, but I still don’t have to approve this decision. And this had to be said.

Boris

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In support, the ability for VATSIM to reach a much wider audience and provide development toward what we all love is immense. I tried probably 15yrs ago to get approval to develop a school based VATSIM program, but was told no. If we need strategic thinking, we can’t stop things.

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I agree Boris, I first learned to fly at the age of 8! I became an Air Cadet as soon as I could and ended up owning two real aircraft. Kids should start young.

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I appreciate the feedback and will ensure it is passed onto the Board of Directors. Not sure they will change their mind, but I agree, by the way. :slight_smile:

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Well definitely…As you told kids can start at young age and get inspired. But it always dosen’t work , every kid won’t be having the same maturity for flying on these network.

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(First time hearing about this age min)

Being a volunteer with 11-18 year olds (Assistant Scoutmaster, and also have taught the Aviation Merit Badge a couple times) and also got his Advanced Ground Instructor rating (upon the recommendation of a prior CFI), I can see both sides of the argument; Sadly (as a society) we equate maturity with age. There is a strong argument for that (generally), but everyone has to start somewhere.

Heck last month, I was a chaperone for the aviation merit badge at Yawgoog. The offsite trip took us down to KWST so the scouts could gain first hand knowledge of non-towered airfield operations as well doing a mock pre flight check.

I remember one of the scouts (probably about 14) asking about the differences between the low wings and the high wings (fuel consumption wise). Having ~250 of real life flight experience (taking a break for the time being), and having brought my flight bag (as a teaching aid, if requested to providing supporting material), I noted how a high wing versus low wing doesn’t affect fuel consumption itself, but rather the weight of the plane, as well as the properties of the air (differences from Standard Temp and Pressure). I pulled out my 172 POH, and showed her the tables I use. I could tell, from my explanation she was able to learn something new without feeling overwhelmed. Elements like this help encourage the next generation into aviation.

(To paraphrase the FOI/ fundamentals of instruction) People have a tangential reason to engage in something.

Instead of broadly prohibiting those under 16, perhaps a gateway program which allows those under 16 to work through modules (akin to a ground school program) to acclimate them to aviation communications.

Those who want to, will take the time to learn and apply.

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Question: do all new members have to provide proof of identity and age?

If not: who will stop 14 year olds to register and fly online? Unless they behave badly and immaturely, there will be no “background check” and they can continue their VATSIM journey.

Remember that rules have been made be circumvented and be smart so you don’t get caught. Same for this: don’t behave like a d*ck and you won’t get questioned about your age.

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Maybe stricter and harder theory exam to fly. And a check ride to ensure they know how to put it into practice.

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Frankly, ALL applicants should need to complete training, and meet some minimum standard or provide documented proof of their qualifications IRL. Ideally, it could be in the form of tiered process (Private VFR, Night Rating [so they can taxi in the dark], Commercial IFR, ATPL) make it impossible for a PPL VFR to file IFR until they are ready. I have heard pre-pubescnt voices that were spot-on in complex airpace and high traffic, and obvously adult voices who should have never left the hangar. It had exactly zero to do with age.

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Absolutely agree. We have guys 15 yo wanting to be ATC and they are very capable.

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If 16 and older is legal on the network, does this not present its own issue? isn’t it illegal to ask minors for their identity?

This entire rule would seem to be pointless anyway; in my experience, folks younger than 16 on the network are there primarily because they’re interested in aviation and want to learn, even though they may not always go about it in the best way. The problem children (read:trolls) definitely seem to be more late teens / twenties; today’s “man children”.

This seems knee-jerk, and likely to have more unfortunate consequences than useful ones.

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The legality of asking minors for proof of identity and age depends on the country and everyone has the right to deny providing proof. But in this case, I guess, VATSIM will then make use of its right to deny access to the network. After all, it is a private organization, there’s not right to participate.

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Its only just been announced in the last quater BOG minutes so its the first time for most people hearing about this.

Who stops the under 13’s from signing up now?

Exams only prove you have knowlege, they stop you from being inmature.

I had a guy that had an ATPL rating on VATSIM, take off into me oppisite direction, at LIRN after I announced all my movements on unicom, where they made none. Qualifications and exams only prove you have the knowlege, they dont stop you from being lazy, inmature or a clown on the network. I have very little to no desire to fly VFR on this network, so why shoud I have to learn how to fly VFR?

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I really disagree. We’ve all seen younger people struggle on frequency when they start Vatsim (like me😅) but as long as they are helped and get the hang of it, I think it’s fine. Most of the younger people you see on the network know what they are doing, some of them are even controllers!
I had problems at first, but I can now have full flights without issues and that, being under that new age limit. I am even in training to become an Air Traffic Controller with BVA. This age limit will really limit VATSIM’s developpement and effect on future pilots.
I hope this gets changed.

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Unfortunatlly, you are just one person, and the stats presented say that 30% of the discaplinary actions taken by VATSIM are against that age group. Whilt they don’t back that up with the overall number of actions take, which would give you an idea of what the situation is, but I would imagine it would have to be signifigant for them to take this path.

VP of conflict resolutions never adds anything of value to the BOG meetings, just a simple one liner, the lack of effort here to give actual data is proably why most members of the netwrok assume nothing is ever done.

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I’ll ask you to reconsider your second statement; I consider it an unfair characterization. While the CRM-specific reports are admittedly short and sweet, the VP represents his department well, and actively participates in BoG conversations on the topics that are discussed, and actively shapes policy/guidance for the community’s benefit. What you generally see in the Departmental Updates section are department-specific notes. Yes, some folks are more succinct than others. But it doesn’t mean that network-wide (as opposed to department) topics aren’t being actively engaged.

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Let me try to steer this into right direction again :slightly_smiling_face:

Don, since you are participating here: Are you the BOG member who is assigned to watch the forums or did you just happen to step in?

I actually looked out for BOG members in the forums and online, to find out how active they might be. Sadly, I found only very few - is the BOG so far away from the community as it appears to me? About our president, I found only one presence, which was a short interview at the 2023 FS Expo, where he was actually talking about Vatsim being a source of education for everyone. Sounded credible.

Yet - according to the minutes - he was the one who made this motion. Where did it come from in the first place? Were there significant complaints we members do not know of or was that just an internal BOG thing coming out of nowhere? Because if it was, that’s IMHO the wrong way.

I’m not expecting a democratic decision (ain’t no democracy here :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: ), but I would expect some sort of reasoning, not just a plain percentage figure which, for itself, says nothing.

I just had a PMP training with a 13yo boy who literally talked me against the wall with his already acquired aviation knowledge and interest in flight. He wanted to practise go-arounds, RNP approaches, all sorts of things hardly any adult ever asks for.

And even if he is an exception, it would be very sad to lose these.

Boris

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My understanding (I’m not an attorney but have been told this by one, for whatever that’s worth) is that this is kind of the problem: if you’re going to make your online service available worldwide, you need to abide by the most restrictive policies regarding such things.

As to whether it would ever come to a legal challenge, who knows, but of course Vatsim doesn’t have the budget to fight such battles and so the easy solution would be to have to restrict access in certain regions, and that doesn’t do anyone any good. So it might be a path to avoid starting down in the first place. As you say, it’s easy enough to lie about your age or create a fraudulent ID. I would guess most of these youngsters are better at Photoshop then the average guy from our generation, and it’s not as if Vatsim has any abilities or rights to conduct a background check; they just have to accept what they see. Anyone can be anyone on here.

This really smacks of a knee-jerk attempt to do something, without really thinking through whether it’s helpful, because they don’t actually know what to do.

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Let us please not dive into the depths of legal subtleties. There is no way to prevent people below the age limit from registering with Vatsim. Period.

We already drown in buerocracy, and as any other new regulation in all areas of life this one will only affect the honest ones. Not the ones who are bound to make trouble.

What will happen is this: Overeager supervisors will approach users for nothing else but their young voice, find out that they lied about their age and suspend them from the network. Mission accomplished.

But I am glad that we few participatin here are obviously of the same opinion: This new rule will improve nothing.

Boris

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I am one of the few of the 1.1+ million VATSIM members that still somewhat regularly monitors the forums and tries to engage. No assignment, forums are just “my speed”. Most folks engage on the VATSIM Community Discord. I’m a member of several dozen Discords with hundreds and hundreds of channels. I can’t possibly keep up with all of that :slight_smile:

BoG members are quite active. I’d wager that I put 30-40 hours into VATSIM a week (don’t tell my wife!!!). Our President is also quite active. He has made it to several live VATSIM events over the years. He was one of the speakers at Flight Sim Expo this year, as well. He also flies very, very actively online.

Of course, the BoG is the governing body over the network, so one would expect much of the time invested to be on higher-level network issues and direction. The amount of time the BoG spends trying to balance permissiveness vs. restrictiveness with our policies, prioritize resources to make network improvements, deal with issues that threaten individual members as well as the network, etc., while at the same time leading their departments’ staffs, is likely invisible to the vast majority of folks. But, from my perspective, as someone who flies and controls on the network regularly, the discussions are robust and pertinent.

No - please let me be clear - this direction, which does not yet have an implementation plan, came from the Board of Directors - the owners of VATSIM. NOT the Board of Governors. Personally, I disagree with it, and am lobbying for it to revert back. There are many, many posts here, on Discord, on various other social media outlets that give good reasons and examples both pro and con. Rationales which are less-often discussed, but also part of this decision, include protection of young minors, varying legal requirements associated with age across the globe, and potential liability to VATSIM. A lot of ingredients in the soup without a clear recipe for a perfect soup, I’m afraid.

So, much like a lot of what goes largely unseen, this is a topic that the BoG will have to discuss with the BoD.

We don’t have all the answers yet, perhaps it was too soon to announce it in the BoG meeting minutes since there was no implementation plan requirements from the BoD yet, but that is a nod to transparency… even if it’s not a clean implementation and shows disconnects.

Hopefully this note helps, even if only a bit.

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