While I do feel the frustrations in this change, there are avenues to circumvent the issue, e.g. typing in the pilot client “.com1 xxx.xxx” pmdg has had to do this for a long time. At the same token, I do not feel it necessary for an evolving or growing network to cater to the needs of people on 7 year+ old simulators, as harsh as it may sound, infrastructure and improvements need to happen. This change could have been pushed a long time ago, but alas, here we are, many years after the fact implementing the change.
I’m sorry if the message failed to seem communicated, but aside from emailing all 100,000+ members on VATSIM, who mind you, do not pay for the service, there are plenty of outlets to connect with the membership and various staff members. I hope this can shed some light to everyone and help realize that while it may be an inconvenience, I feel this forum post is just not appropriate given the steps VATSIM has taken, given they have done their part on informing the community and then some.
Ah, I misread that then. This is of course unfortunate for you, but I’m sure you can figure out a way to make using the pilot client for frequency changes easier (perhaps configuring your hardware com panels to use 8.33kHz spacing and then have a script that transfers the inputs directly to the pilot client?). Otherwise, as I said: plenty of other places on VATSIM that one can fly in that don’t use 8.33kHz spacing.
You are simply wrong. VATSIM has time and time again refused permission for us to use 8.33kHz spacing precisely out of concern for people like you. This was the reason for the study I mentioned. It has found that a vanishingly small number of people are affected by this and most of these - from all the feedback that I’m privy to - have quickly found workarounds. Not improving something because it might negatively impact a handful of people is - as I said - not sustainable. Most decisions taking place every day throughout the world are taken with way less regard for minorities.
And as Don already said: this has been announced on essentially all of VATSIM’s communication channels (save for the mailing list, I suppose) and even before it was officially announced, there have been various inadvertent “leaks”. You not being aware of the trial until the end of its first month suggests to me that you simply didn’t check VATSIM’s communications channels, which is of course not mandatory, but it’s certainly not VATSIM’s fault that you weren’t made aware of this. And mind you, most users don’t even have to be aware of this change since they use simulators/addons that natively support 8.33kHz spacing. They can simply be indifferent to it. You also had pretty much two decades advance notice as VATSIM strives for realism. We could also not use frequencies at all and just click “join” in the pilot client to connect to a given controller’s chat room, but we don’t do this because of realism - in the same vein, a change is being made to allow use of the correct, published real-world frequencies now (as is the case everywhere else already).
VATSIM also doesn’t disregard negative feedback, but the negative feedback dwindles in comparison to the positive feedback. Why should they value the feedback of a handful of people with very specific circumstances above that of everyone else, including the average user? Not to forget that this exact feedback has been given by other people already, it’s not like this “discussion would never have happened” without your experience. Most of them were either happy with using the pilot client commands or quickly found workarounds, as I already mentioned.
I have a fairly recent flight simulator, I also have a fairly new computer. A PMDG 747 with the 8 series cost as much as $200. An upgrade to P3Dv5 will cost $60. I don’t need to upgrade anything and I do not want to throw money after what might prove to be an expensive temporary investment before the next uncaring wizz kid comes along with another so call ‘improvement’ that will require further expensive updates.
What was a relatively inexpensive hobby not many years ago is getting increasingly more expensive mostly for no other reason than entrepreneurs seeing our hobby as a ripe cash cow.
You speak of 100000+ emails but it does not cost much to send emails and as VATSIM is now a money making incorporation any such expense could be well spent and within the remit of its incorporation.
I was NOT aware that it was compulsory for me, as a member, to have an account with a social media outlet of VATSIM’s particular preference!
However, it is a condition of my membership that I show a valid email address on my profile; if that is not for VATSIM to contact me in such circumstances that might benefit me I wonder why it is really necessary!
Access to my email account has served me very well for a number of reasons and for a variety of interests; it also remains my preferred means of communication with VATSIM. If, that is, VATSIM feels it necessary to contact me.
VATSIM has NOT contacted me, or anybody else that I know regarding this issue, so I really do wonder, incompetence and lack of concern aside, why VATSIM has not done so in regard to this issue.
The announcement was also made available on my.VATSIM.net, where the hub of all of our resources are made available. I personally feel a mountain is being made of a mole hill on the premises of an inconvenience in communication for you or other people. If the only way to send news is via email, then every organization and company in the world is doing things wrong. I fail to see where the hostility is coming from or why it is being blown in to such a large issue. And, before the argument my.VATSIM.net was not communicated, it’s been a thing for over three years now.
The conclusion that I have drawn from this debate(?) is that VATSIM has no interest in its wider membership; instead it cares only for its pet projects, that serve only a very few, over the people that it is supposed to be serving.
VATSIM’s internal clique has rounded the wagons against me and those of us that are being served badly. It is clearly NOT interested in anybody else or their specific circumstances. It has demonstrably lost sense of its original purpose.
All I’ve seen from proponents of the change is for individual pilots to make the appropriate steps to conform with the change. Comments like ‘upgrade your hardware’, ‘get Prosim’, hassle your 3rd party provider’.
Upgrading hardware comes at cost. Six weeks ago it was all fine. Now we’re told to get with program and spend more money to satisfy the whim of a few who want their experience made easier.
Prosim is extremely expensive at €1500 for a licence and a €99 annual subscription. Not everyone can afford that.
Again, you’re asking individuals to do the leg work by hassling 3rd party developers to get with the program and update their respective programs. Did any of those wanting this change confer with those developers
Using Vpilot to change frequency is contradictory to those sprucing ‘real life’. Not to mention the difficulties in doing this when approaching to land in a full sim. It’s obviously not easily done on a desktop either judging by other comments.
Correspondence of this change did not go to all members, me included. I found out about it through a mate who read it on an FS Elite review.
No matter what sort of picture you paint, at the end of the day it is a hobby, albeit an educational one. I, for one, am not happy with the change because of cost involved and lack of foresight of those wanting it for personal reasons. Remember Aviate, Navigate, Communicate in that order
Well, unfortunately change will never be liked by everyone, and when the change was posted on the actual VATSIM website, no one can help anyone there for not reading the VATSIM website. I think this conversation needs to end and the woe is me card needs to end. It’s a hobby and its being treated like the end of the world here.
As much as I have been able find the current PMDG products are not compatible with 8.33KHz.
The trend amongst developers of quality aircraft seems to be that as there has been no requirement for 8.33 they have not incorporated any capability in their products.
There is suggestion that PMDG will only incorporate 8.33 in their new MSFS aircraft.
It is clear therefore that not only has VATSIM not prepared its members for this change but it has not even consulted leading developers to for warn them and, more importantly, to determine whether user aircraft are able to conform
There are no other words for this other than ‘neglect’ and ‘incompetence’!
VATSIM is clearly rushing this through without any thought to potential consequences!
It is a disgrace!
That’s fine and beaut but let me ask one more question. How much will it cost a controller to go to the new frequencies? We already know the answer - zilch, zero, nothing. So don’t be so bloody condescending when you’re preaching spend, spend, spend so a handful of ATC can make life a little easier on themselves.
My apologies Torben, my comment should have been addressed to Austin Wilkins.
I think however that your ‘rant’ comment was undeserved and out of order.
This is simply untrue. Many developers have supported 8.33kHz spacing for years now, and many that didn’t have had no issue implementing it within a few weeks after this trial was announced (precisely because the community asked them to) - and while I’m not a software engineer, it generally sounds like an arbitrary thing to update.
PMDG is simply an unreliable developer who even promised 8.33kHz support for all their aircraft beginning with P3D v5 over three years ago. It’s not VATSIM’s fault that they lie to their customers and don’t implement long-standing aviation standards even after repeated requests from various people.
Where are you getting this misinformation from? VATSIM clearly stated in the announcement that there are some simulators and/or addons that don’t (yet) support 8.33kHz spacing, so members who made a little bit of an effort to stay informed on any new developments on the network were quickly aware of this trial and had a good idea if it would mean that something changes for them.
And from the discussion on this topic that took place on the VATSIM Discord, it seems clear to me that VATSIM did reach out to developers about this trial (although PMDG apparently gave them the silent treatment).
As I’ve already said above, this has been a looooooong process. VATSIM took its sweet time to make sure only a minimum amount of its users would be adversely affected.
What’s a disgrace is that you are spewing out misinformation and false allegations against the people who sacrifice large parts of their free time to make this network possible for all of us without having any idea about the processes involved in the background. Like Torben says: you’re on a rant. Might not be a bad idea to take a break and come back to this with a fresh and more open mind in a bit.
Well said, David
Mike appears to have decided to be critical without gathering his evidence. I hope that this discussion can be had in a friendly manner.
David,
I have been told by some on this debate that I. and many others. should contact our developers or even put our hands in our pockets, and update our aircraft.
I have been on the PMDG forum and on the Avsim forum today and the consensus is that PMDG and other developers (possibly with the exception of FSLabs, but I do not have FSLAbs) have clearly stated that there is no indication that there is a current demand for 8.33. That has come from “the horse’s mouth” so to speak so STOP this deliberate negative BS, or drag your heads out of the sand! either one or both but this getting totally unacceptable. VATSIM no longer serves the hobbyist!
We as a group at IFSG have unanimously decided that we will no longer wish to fly into European airports for the simple reason that certain VATSIM members have shown utter contempt for pilots, taking the expressed view that we do not matter!
I’m going to ask you to tone it down. You are certainly welcome to your opinions, but when you start posting things publicly about VATSIM leadership not caring about it’s members, being neglectful, and incompetent, especially when you have not fact-checked some of your claims which are incorrect, never mind being quite disrespectful to the volunteer leadership that works so hard to support this community, you are actually making defamatory, infringing and libelous statements.
Europe has been using 8.33kHz for the past 24 years. We intentionally held off on implementing this scheme on VATSIM until most of the user base could adjust natively and as seamlessly as possible. As has been mentioned previously, if we waited for 100% of the potential user base to be able to adjust to progress, we’d never move forward. And if we don’t move forward, ultimately, we’re left behind.
Is it unfortunate that you and a small other number of users are challenged by this decision? Yes, it is unfortunate. Although not perfect for everyone, we have, however, communicated, through multiple channels, how to overcome these challenges (through pilot client commands).
Nothing can be guaranteed to be perfect for every individual that we have in our community. We have an amazing range of backgrounds, experiences, means, opinions, etc. represented. We try to implement strategies and initiatives that support the vast majority of the community. We cannot, however, be all things to all people. I hope that our community and platform are “good enough” for your desires. If not, I wish you all the best in whatever community you choose as you depart from VATSIM. I hope you do not make that choice. However, if you do, I would encourage that to be your choice, and on your terms. However, if you continue the insults, that decision may be made for you.
Hello Don,
I do not agree! If people are to be prevented from criticising those that choose to, or have been elected to, make decisions on their behalf that is a dictatorship, or authoritarianism, either of which is unacceptable for a voluntary organisation that hopes to raise funds from its membership.
Making ridiculous threats is no better than the offences that you have accused me of, so you can add hypocrisy to your list of words with which you seek to incriminate me.
I think this thread has run its course. Mike, nobody has prevented you from providing your feedback on the change, however the disrespectful nature of how you’ve chosen to do so is a concern. I’ll be locking this thread from further replies.
