Sure, but do pilots know that? Maybe local pilots will, but international visitors will not. We have to accommodate both parties. It’s a simulation and usually ATCOs are much more trained and knowledgeable than pilots, just by the nature how training is done and ratings are awarded. Right?
I had the idea of making a service (initially starting out as an API) that would get the preferred routes from a database; whether from IRL or from SOP/LOA or an ARTCC’s IDS.
Almost all? Really?
I’ve been with Vatsim for ~year and yet to encounter case where ATCO would only say “your plan is wrong” and nothing else. I’ve had SIDs corrected (sometimes with explanation why, sometimes without), cruise altitude amended, etc.
If the frequency is not busy I’d ask controller why and they always responded.
There is already one solution for a lot of european routes, that are curated by the local controlers: grd.aero-nav.com has a lot of routes in europe and also checks them every month with the official rad document so the routes should all be valid.
2 Likes
Wait until everyone finds out about flight planning around TSA/TRAs😛
1 Like
In reality, I’ve never in 30 years of flying professionally ever heard a controller tell someone simply that they can’t issue a clearance because of an invalid route. Do incorrect routes get filed? Sure, all the time, for reasons ranging from new GA IFR pilots to new dispatchers at legacy airlines.
The response you’ll get from ATC is “your filed route invalid for [airport flow] [aircraft type] [time of day] [personal whims] [whatever], I’ll have a full route clearance for you, advise ready to copy.”
In other words, if ATC can’t accommodate what you’ve filed, it’s actually their job to tell you what you CAN do. Not sure how Vatsim treats it, but if you’re looking for realism, pilots ought not to simply be told their route won’t work. A controller probably ought to be a controller ;).
3 Likes
If using SimBrief, will it make all flight plans 100%? I’m sure I’ve been having mistakes on mine.
More than likely they are okay (meaning, no mistakes), but unless routes are included there to include time-based circumstances, they can have mistakes. Again, reference the LADYJ/SUMMR/DARRK situation above. If you were flying from LAX to OAK after 9pm local time at LAX, in effect, filing the LADYJ SID would be wrong, as it isn’t to be used after 9pm and before 7am.
So some onus on the validity of the flight plan does rest on the pilot. If not, it will be negotiated out between the pilot and ATC.
BL.
As Brad wrote, Simbrief routes have to be taken with a grain of salt. They are based on what other pilots before you have used most and they might not necessarily be correct!
When flying in North America it is highly encouraged to use real world routes from https://flightaware.com/analysis/route.rvt or https://skyvector.com/ . They are real world routes, they will be correct.
4 Likes
another tool from the FAA for preferred routes
https://www.fly.faa.gov/rmt/nfdc_preferred_routes_database.jsp
2 Likes
I don’t agree.
If ATC knows that a certain route is “invalid”, then they sure know what would be “valid”.
- For example, EDDF_TWR tells ABC123 that his route is invalid, 'cause it used no SID endpoint. I don’t think EDDF_TWR has the time and the knowledge to search for a routed that is valid in other airspaces. TWR can tell the Pilot which SID endpoints are available but how come a local EDDF controller should plan a valid route all the way to the US, Africa or Asia?
The only way to help is to tell the pilot where he can find valid routes.
I don’t expect ATC to do my job and most ATC do not have the time to do so.
It takes 2 clicks to find a route and local controllers will immediately recognize routes with valid SIDs. That’s the point.
1 Like
I think the issue here is that while ATC may not know if the full route is valid - especially the arrival at the destination airport - they will know if the route leaving the airport(s) under their control are valid. That is what they would be looking at, especially for it to match their local SOPs and LOAs to make sure they are in compliance.
When the pilot arrives in the sector/FIR of the destination airport, if their arrival (if applicable) is invalid, it will be corrected at that point by ATC asking about a particular STAR is able to be flown. If not, we can always vector them in.
BL.
2 Likes
It actually is ATC’s job to tell you which route is acceptable, if what you’ve filed is not. This is where you hear the “… Have a full route clearance for you, advise ready to copy…” verbiage in reality. No one gets lambasted for having the wrong route on file.
That’s reality. I don’t know how Vatsim might treat it, but if the idea is to mimic reality…
3 Likes
21 years Ive never had a controller just say my flighplan is wrong and leave me hanging. The most challenging scenario i see is a busy event where theres different routes or runway configs being used than simbrief is choosing and the controller is repeatidly correcting all the simbrief users.
Simbrief is so incredibly convenient and now highly integrated into many apps and aircraft, it can cause some extra work.
But i wouldnt call any of this a major problem. Its all learning and compared to the challenges of real-world ops, these hiccups are minor and break up the monotony for me personally. Learning about contracts between centers or night ops is pretty cool stuff. Im always curious why ATC changes my plan and i always ask why. Its a great opportunity and the controllers are super helpful.
The idea of having to pick up a phone and talk to someone about my route? No thanks. Id rather see those resources jump into the clearance delivery or ground role.
2 Likes
While we can certainly discuss whether it is the role of our ATC’s to correct fight plans, it is certainly the role of the ATC to prioritize their work.
So, under the assumption that it is the role of the ATC (even a CTR controller alone) to correct/amend flight plans with the right SID/STAR’s, then I would definitely say that it is fair enough that you get pushed to the end of the queue if your flight plan doesn’t work out.
Meaning, that the controller deals with the most pressing matters and then, when time permits, give you your clearance.
As a sidenote, this is also where PDC’s shine IMO, because the controller can send the PDC when there is time for it, contrary to vocal clearances where the pilot will expect some form of response.
As a sidesidenote, I have actually heard a Washington delivery controller tell everyone to standby and then keep the switch pressed, in order to have silence to do his work. So, I guess that is also an option… 
Cheers,
Michael
2 Likes
Some very interesting questions raised and ideas to entertain.
Unlike Europe, where you have the IFPS to provide you with the final say on any flight plan, in North America (outside of highly structured airspaces and terminal areas where the NFDC preferred route database can be helpful) it is more or less free for all with route planning practices varying wildly even between operators.
While information on flightaware can be useful, they are not guaranteed to be available for your route, nor are they absolute like what you get with IFPS. To be able to adapt to any need requires an expertise to plan using a host of input and information from multiple sources.
IRL the task of route planning is 100% the responsibility of the operator (while flight planning hotlines by ATS facilities are actually a thing - e.g. Eurocontrol providing you a +32 number to call), however on VATSIM the “ATS doubling as flight planner” thing has become more and more commonplace. It is fair to say that this has to some degree resulted in the underdevelopment of flight planning expertise on the operator side (plus the rise of “automation”).
With regards to some of the responses above, I would say that this service does not actually have to be provided by the network itself, and I can gladly report that we already had a simillar idea a while back - please see the linked post. Many have pointed out the need to educate and ask why, and that is what we have been trying to do - a platform to share and discuss realistic flight planning resources and practices.
Although we do have a focus on global long-haul ops, as many have pointed out regional differences in airspace and route structure is the main obstacle for any pilot trying to step out of their comfort zone. American pilots don’t get the FRA implementations and European pilots get confused about the departure gate shenanigans. And our global expertise does come in very handy for this circumstance. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
1 Like
As a pilot I often wonder why I go through the procedure of looking at simbrief for a flight plan, then pulling up the different plates for it and enter it all into the vpilot flightplan and send it off, ONLY to hear “there are changes to your flight plan, wait for PDC”
I sometimes ask why and get answers like " we here prefer this one" or " we have a letter of agreement with the next controllers" etc.
The question then is " why are there so many different procedures [er airport? 4 are enough, one for each direction. (during noise abatement fly with engines off)
Sometimes I am tempted to just tell the controller " I like to goto xyz, send me a flightplan pls"
just my 2 cents.
Lol, That’s a new but good one!
If flying in Europe, how much effort do you make to validate with EUROCONTROL/NM the fpl you are trying to fly?